Is the film camera market really starting to landslide?

[BurninFilm]

Man, lately I've noticed some decent cameras selling for nearly nothing on Ebay and Shopgoodwill.com... Seems like the market for most film cameras (except those with special collectible value or from desireable high end makers) is REALLY starting to collapse. Heck, Scott has a really nice Canon EOS in the classifieds that he is basically giving away... I've had some OK luck selling classic cameras, including SLRs, that are in really nice condition, or nice examples of older cameras from the 1950s and earlier. I'm guessing that anyone who is now getting really interested in photography is simply skipping film altogether, and picking up a decent digital SLR like a D70 (heck, you can get an excellent condition D70 body with battery and charger from KEH for under $250). Why even bother with a film SLR now, unless you enjoy the nostalgia?

It seems that the once "obsolete" fixed-lens rangefinders from certain brands (Canon, Konica, and especially Olympus) are selling OK on Ebay... probably helped out by sites like Rangefinderforum. I even saw a lowly Olympus 35RC sell for nearly $200 in a recent online auction. WTF?

Now, I'm not intending for this to be a "death of film" type of thread... just noticing a sharp decline in prices for many 35mm cameras, particularly SLRs.

[Todd G]

I've noticed the last few years that used camera prices seem to run in cycles.  Peak in the first few months of the year, then bottom out mid-late summer.  Personal speculation is this may be from too many other things to do outside in the summer, longer, colder nights with maybe a little income tax refund money to play with earlier in the year.  But then add in the general economic conditions right now and it's not only used cameras that are selling poorly.  I'm sort of surprised some of them are selling as high as they are right now.

[wlewisiii]

I'd say Todd's on the mark here. My best deals have always come mid to late summer so this isn't anything particular to this year. Deeper, this cycle, perhaps but still the same cycle.

William

[Scott]

I think it's cyclical, true, but I also think 35mm film, for normal consumers, is in its death throes.  Fewer and fewer places even process 35mm film anymore (our local WalMart and Rite Aid both send it out now).  Prints from digital are faster, cheaper, and more convenient.  My MiL still shoots 35mm film - I think she's one of the last.

My wife has a nice digicam - a Canon 790IS.  Her workflow is simple - upload everything to shutterfly, fix redeye, and order prints.  Substitute CVS in there if we've got an ecoupon.  The prints are every bit what we used to get from Fuji Superia and an Olympus Stylus Epic.  And with in-camera deleting, there's almost no bad shots being printed.

Now, as applying to film SLRs, you've got a market which used to be the domain of serious amateurs and pros.  Pros have all but forsaken film for speed and ease of submission; serious amateurs often suffer from Phil Greenspun disease, and have dumped film for digital SLRs (myself included).  Canon EOS (or other contemporary film SLRs) don't have the nostalgia, kitsch, or bling of other kinds of 35mm cameras, and are dying a painful death now.  I'm part of that cycle - if I want 35mm shots, I'll shoot digital.  If I want better quality, I'll shoot 6x6 or 5x7.

Some things are doing just fine - I got a ton of interest in my Clarus rangefinder, and even have a buyer for my other Clarus that isn't even fixed yet.  If I didn't hate scanning 35mm so much, I'd keep buying Claruses, mainly 'cause they're fun to fix.  But it demonstrates that there's still a market for 35mm film - just not consumer or pro.  Which, again, is where 35mm SLRs were going before digital evolved.

My opinion, FWIW.

[jake]

Ebay is down entirely (as per a recent quarterly report,) so it might be hard to say whether film cameras are down specifically or if the entire smorgasboard that Ebay offers is down as a totality. One would think that film cameras generally would be sloping downward, but digital camera sales are also in the basement right now, so again it might be hard to separate out what is due to film and what is due to the general overall malaise in the market for discretionary items. I do sense that more things go unsold or unbid upon at the auction's closing though. And having followed a few things, I haven't seen them come back onto Ebay.

One of the big problems all over the economy is that while things (cameras, houses, boats, etc.) are not selling, very few people are lowering their prices dramatically. Prices are going down generally, but they aren't going down at a rate that reflects the drop in the rate of sales. What is happening is that owners are turning into warehousers. You don't see, for example, someone selling a user Hasselblad + lens & back for a BIN price of $250 just to get the cash. Instead, you see user Hasselblads roughly at the same price they were one two years ago, and then they don't sell.

Of course, the variable now has always been the variable - if someone with money in their pocket to burn sees the camera they want, they buy it. But I am not convinced that there are the same number of those people around as there was a few months ago and certainly not like there were in say, 2006.

Part of the reason people are warehousing things is the price paid for these items when the economy was good, which was a price unavoidably inflated by the fluidity of money at that time. Even though film camera prices were depressed relative to their original values, their price was still in some way tied to the value of new digital cameras and so were as inflated by the "irrational exuberance" of a market driven by easy credit. And the value of these cameras now is still to some degree based on what they used to go for a couple years ago, rather than being reflective of the current market.

In short, people may not yet willing to take the hit on the price that they may need to take later to turn their camera into usable cash. And that's the other part of this - people may be dented but they are still roughly okay & hopeful that this slump will only last a year or so at most. And so while they will try to sell it now, if it doesn't sell, they are willing to wait. Or as my wife says, "If people are still buying organic hand-cooked dogfood for their shitzu, then things have not yet reached the bottom."

We still have a ways to go I think.

[Wayne]

"If people are still buying organic hand-cooked dogfood for their shitzu, then things have not yet reached the bottom."

We still have a ways to go I think.

If they're eating their shitzu, you're at the bottom...

[Scott]

Another data point to add fuel to the fire: My local 'pro' lab, DCC Photo in Reading (which had a large mail order business) has apparently gone under.  Website's gone, phone's been disconnected.  Called them today (tried to, anyhow) to see if they had any 120 film in stock.  What a bummer.

[LarryD]

As Life gets harder My freezer get fuller. I think it is the Summer drop. I get my best deals in the Summer. Just got a nice flash for a buck at a yard sale. Big old Potato Masher.. took the old D cell rechargeable batteries out and put some new batteries in it works fine.

[Lauren,M.]

Best solution to this film Problem , Is everybody goes out and shoot's some film every day then you will not have to worry about if its dead !

[radiophoto]

Another data point to add fuel to the fire: My local 'pro' lab, DCC Photo in Reading (which had a large mail order business) has apparently gone under.  Website's gone, phone's been disconnected.  Called them today (tried to, anyhow) to see if they had any 120 film in stock.  What a bummer.

Scott, was that Jack Cutler's business?  Holy SH*T, man.  :eek:

[radiophoto]

I've noticed the last few years that used camera prices seem to run in cycles.  Peak in the first few months of the year, then bottom out mid-late summer. 

Thanks, Todd -- you've given me the patience to wait until the weather cools off to try unloading my surplus cameras! 

[LarryD]

Make a list and send it to me... Pete.

[radiophoto]

Larry:  I'll do that.

[melek]

I'm a believer in the cycle theory, as well.

Currently, price on Rolleiflex TLRs are way up -- nearly double what they used to be.

I think that the plastic-bodied SLRs from the 1980s and 1990s don't sell as well. I notice that the Pentax K1000 seems to be holding its value and hasn't changed appreciably over the past six or seven years.

Prices for certain rangefinders seem to be stable, although down a bit recently.

I've come to believe that you have to be patient when it comes to buying cameras. If the prices seem too high, wait a few months and they'll probably fall.

By the way, I had been the king of the impulse buy. Trying to reduce that to peasant status -- almost there.

[Raid Amin]

I have switched from SLR purchases to RF purchases several years ago for love of RF gear and for better resale value. All my Leica gear has appreciated in value while my Canon FD gear is not worth much anymore even though I swear by it quality wise.

I did not even try to sell any of my extensive SLR gear due to the low resale values. What a bummer. I see it as money invested into a system that gave me good use over the years, and now I just enjoy having the gear for occasional use.