116 and 616 cameras

[LarryD]

I have a few of theas laying around and was wondering if I could use 120 film in them and how the #'s would line up with the little red window? or would it be better to find some wider paper and just self mark them and put some exposed film in them to get an idea of where they line up.

 They are not wonderful cameras but heck they are not doing anything but collecting dust at the moment and I thought they may want 1 last shot in the sun.

Larry

[pandino]

Larry,
I think the spools are 70mm, so you can roll your own if you have the film backing paper.  I just found a 116 camera with a roll in it and I have some 70mm C41, so I'm going to give it a whirl.

I did a dry run with some 120 backing paper a while back, but the numbers didn't align and the paper shifted around. I'm using a No 1A Pocket Kodak Junior.  People must have had big pockets back in the `30's, because this thing is pretty big!

If you ever happen to find a roll of 116/616 w/ backing paper, PM me and I'll roll some Agfa Portrait 160 onto the spool for you.

[LarryD]

pandino

 Sure thing if I ever find any if you have some backing Paper could you print me a few frames and I could replacate the rest of it because I have blank light proof paper.

I figure if it is 5mm short I can still make it hold tight to the paper with the wooden rolls I have. and I even have one of those old plastic apron tanks that It would fit in.

Larry

[Jordan]

You should definitely check out this photo.net thread: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00FS31&tag=

The poster, Joseph Allen, gives a link to his web-page at the bottom of this page, which has a description of how he adapted his Monitor 616 to use 120 film. I want me one-a those 616s.

[pandino]

pandino

 Sure thing if I ever find any if you have some backing Paper could you print me a few frames and I could replacate the rest of it because I have blank light proof paper.

Larry

Larry,
I'm going to try develop the old roll of film first, once I have I'll get you all of the relevant dimensions (width, spacing, leader, etc) .  I'm trying to find a 116 dev reel.  If I can't find one soon, I'll pull the paper and stick the film in one of those Adox film canisters (I think it'll fit sans spool?) until a developing reel presents itself.

[Don Day]

I support my 616/116 film habit in this way:

First, I bought a 30m roll of 70mm Efke 100 from JandC Photography a year ago.  In a darkroom, I cut a portion of this into 1meter strips and stored them in a tin storage container sealed with wide electrical tape. I use these as needed and cut a fresh batch at a time so that I am not always handling that big roll in the dark.  Each 1m reload is about the same square inches as two 24exp rolls of 35mm film, if you care to think about how it equates to 35mm bulk film; the fact that it is only 8 frames instead of 48 or more just means that you don't have to waste as many shots to get done with a photo session and back in the darkroom ;-)

The old 116/616 cameras usually come with an empty spool.  Spools sold singly on eBay can go for as much as a cheap Pocket Kodak that has a spool in it, so I say "get your spool with a free camera."

Once in awhile you'll get a partially used roll in a camera. Vendors almost always pop the back open so they can take a picture of the roll in place --"Comes with film!" they advertise, mindless of the loss of whatever images had been taken and any future use you might get from the remaining exposures. Develop it just to see, but keep your expectation of "lost image recovery" at about 30% or less, thanks to mindless middlemen (I'm not even really ranting yet).  But you will get a paper that you can reuse.  IMO, this will be more valuable as a pattern later on than as a reload for now.

To keep from ruining the paper/tape joint through repeated handling in the dark, I now use painting tape to attach the film on  the paper.  Regular masking tape is stronger than necessary; you need only enough tack to keep things together given the moderate drag within the camera. In fact, I use a full width of the blue tape for the paper side of the joint, and add a strip of the even less tacky purple tape for actually attaching the film (squint at this edge view--copy into Notepad if it does not look right here):

Code:

   3/4" blue tape (1/2 on the paper, 1/2 backs the purple tape strip)
    |  
    v   // <- 1/2" purple tape strip backed by the blue tape
  ____// ________   <- film (held by purple tape only)
------------------  <- paper

Even if you don't score a camera with paper, with patience you can find used spools with paper on eBay. However you get your backing paper, the papers have a limited lifetime for reuse.  Old cameras never seem to track cleanly, and the paper often will skew to the side and get mangled along the edge during use.  Once the light leaks become objectionable, its time for the last piece in the plan--backing paper replacements.

A perfect paper for replacement film backing is available from Cartoon Colour.  Go to http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog and search for "exeter". The 25ft minimum length for about $40 will slice into dozens of backing papers.  Each 69" length will yield about 9 backing papers, carefully slit in a pivot-bladed paper cutter.  Your hobby/art store will have a DecoColor opaque paint marker that is perfect for adding numbers to each of your new backing papers (copying off that original, well-worn roll).  Plus, this paper seems tougher than original film papers--you should get multiple reuses from each.  This will last you til kingdom come, but don't count it a waste--look at the figures:

Although the initial outlay seems like you are starting your own film factory, the first-time cost per roll (no reuse of the paper) amortizes to about $3.50 each (30 reloads from that 30m bulk roll, including the special paper order, ink pen, and tape).  Weigh that against the special-order commercial equivalents that cost nearly 10 times as much!  But that's not all!-- you also get the thrill of using sharp blades in the dark. ;-)

But you have to have at least 2 spools to play this game.  I have no secrets for fabricating those specialty items--yet.

Marking a 116/616 backing paper without a pattern
If you don't have a pattern paper, here's the physical plan for numbering a new paper:

Each backing is about 2 and 13/16" wide and 69" long. Measure the width to the spool you have on hand before you cut; if your cut is slightly too wide, it can't be trimmed easily.

Trim the ends to a short taper with a 1" long tongue just wide enough for the spool slots. Tape the paper shiny side up to a table for measuring and marking the numbers and guide marks.

The taped end of the film will go 17" from the lead end of the paper--put a mark here to center your tape on.  Given the 1m length of film, the end of the film will be about 57" down from the lead end. This end-of-film mark is optional, but its nice to see it go by in the red window as a progress indicator when winding!

From the tape mark, measure down 5.5" and place a mark for the first frame number.  Then measure 4.6" at a time from there and place repeating markers for 7 more frames. I have a card sized to this length that I just move from mark to mark--any accumulated discrepancy is minor.

With the leader end to your left, at each frame marker location use the white pen to put a vertical sequence of each frame number about 3 or 4 times from the top edge down for about 1 inch.  This accomodates non-standard window placement on various brands of cameras. If doing this for just one camera, you can place the one number at the right distance down as measured from the camera.

That's it! Let the markings dry, then spool it up and go to work.

For developing 70mm film, I'll write another post. I have a tip for adapting Patterson-type reels for any odd width, 70mm and greater.

[pandino]

Don,
Great info.  I'm looking forward to your post on developing, as I don't have a proper reel.

[LarryD]

That is great i am printing it now.

Thanks

Larry

[ImageMaker]

Spools are pretty easy, actually.  You need the dimensions of the original -- core diameter, inside length, flange diameter and thickness, key slot width and length and pivot hole diameter (the pivot hole is superposed on the key slot), and some simple tools and materials.

For 616, the key slot and pivot hole are identical to 620 (I happen to have a couple 616 spools here, came with a camera), flange is a little bigger.  For 116, the construction is similar to old metal 120 spools, with a rolled edge on the flange and "welted" (for lack of knowing the correct term) key slot, but the slot is bigger and the flange is a lot larger diameter.  If course, the core of 116 is bigger than that in 616, too, but if anyone wants the numbers, I'd be happy to measure my spools (except the 116, which still has film on it so I can't measure the core until I respool that film to try it in the 616 camera) (I've also got what I believe to be 118 and 124 spools, and a pair of 122 spools -- someday, I might get some of that Exeter paper and some aero film and make up a roll or two of 122 just to try out this #3 Box Brownie).

To make a 616 spool, you need a piece of brass hobby tube close to the correct diameter (looks like 5/16" to me) and two disks of brass sheet -- looks like .016" to .020" would work -- and you need to know how to solder a round to a flat without leaving a bunch of solder in the the corner (it's easy to do, but hard to describe -- I learned the trick from watching "The Woodwright Shop", the episode where he made tin whistles that you whirl on a string).  I'd probably solder up the spool first, then cut the slots in the core with a Dremel and cutoff wheel, drill the pivot holes in the flanges, and use a needle file to cut the key slots outward from the hole.

For 116, it'd be tempting to use the method used by Kodak for all large spools before about 1920: a turned wooden core spindle (easily cut down from dowel) with metal "cups" on the ends attached to the flanges.  A thicker flange would sub for the rolled edge, and the same methods would apply for drilling and cutting the pivot hole and key slot.

Alternately, it'd probably be possible to make spindles from plain dowel cores glued to plastic flanges, but the flanges might not the strong enough to take the force on the drive key if the film gets a little tight.  These would work well, however, for a supply spool if you only have one original spool (which can be used for takeup).

[Don Day]

Having authored these construction project articles here, I now think they would be better off in the Technical forum. But until I get the energy, I'll leave them here for now.  By this weekend, you might see a link here in place of this full article.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can adapt a standard Patterson-type reel (the white plastic reels that slide onto a "bouncing" center post) for films larger than the standard 120 size.  The secret: a cheap and lowly 1 1/4" plastic drain pipe adapter from your hardware store!

This project assumes that you have a two-reel version of the tank, since we are making up a larger reel and will need the extra capacity of the two-reel tank for processing larger rolls.

Here is what to shop for--a standard bathroom sink drain pipe extension (1 1/4" marked diameter) that should cost no more than a couple dollars.
(tube photo)
 This is a tube about 6" long with a small reducing section about 2" from one end, and usually comes with plastic compression rings and a threaded coupler.  Buy several so that you can make spares for other film sizes.  These also make great telescope eyepiece adapters, but THAT project is for another forum, another community.

You will also need a "nibbling tool."  Radio Shack sells these for trimming metal project boxes to mount meters or cut holes larger than your drill bits can handle.  Each pinch of this tool removes a small rectangle of material about 3/16" wide and 1/8" long at a time. We'll use this to dig out the channels for the adapter to interlock with the reels.  There is no better tool for the job. I got frustrated trying to use hacksaws, coping saws, Dremel bits, metal shears, you name it. This tool does the job so fast that you can easily overdo it!

122 adapter
First, let's make the easy one--an adapter for 122-size film. This was the size used for the very common Kodak 3A cameras, therefore there is a chance that you might use this adapter once in a while.

Use a hacksaw to cut off the threaded end at about 1 1/4" from the reducing section of the pipe.  Sand off any plastic burrs.

From the reducer, measure out about 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" onto the narrow part of the tube, and again cut and deburr that edge.

The big end of the adapter should just slide over the narrow half of the film spool. You guessed it--the narrow end of the adapter will go into the larger film spool hole.

Place 3 equally-spaced guide marks around the narrow part of the adapter. From the edge of the reducer, measure back 1/2" at each guide mark.  Now, at each guide mark, use the nibbling tool to cut a channel from the end of the narrow tube up to the 1/2" mark. Fit the channels to the matching reel to test the fit as you go.

You can now assemble the pieces, slide the assembly onto the black central tube, and use the snap ring to keep the assembly together.  Done!

(finished item photo)
For extra credit, there is ample room around the narrow end of the tube to put two more sets of channels. In this photo, you can see one set that I added for 130 film, with space left for another format that I'll dig out once I know which film it is!  Three for one, not bad for a 3 dollar adapter.

70mm (116/616) adapter
This adapter involves modifying the end of one of your reel halves.

Trim off the large end of the drain pipe as before.  Trim off the narrow end at 1/2" from the reducing section.  On the narrow end, mark off and even up the equidistant thirds as before. Use the nibbling tool to cut the channels up to the reducer.  If you wish, you can also nibble in some catch bays to lock the reducer onto it matching reel half, although this is not necessary.

Now for the modification to your other reel half.  If you have the two-reel tank, you can dedicate one reel for the 70mm adapter and leave the other reel to handle any other size. The part that you trim off for the 70mm conversion will throw off the adapter used for 122 or any other large film.
(modified and stock reels photo)

This modification is straightforward. You need to cut off the end of the center post down to the depth of the alignment notch on the reel.

Code:

____    ____
    |__|  <- trim down to this point

Before you trim, mark the location of the notch with a permanent marker so that you can continue to align the reel parts for your other film processing.  This cut determines how closely the reels fit together--without it, the gap is too wide for 70mm film, too much taken off and the film might become hard to load due to binding along the edges.

At this point, once you reassemble the reel parts on the adapter and secure them on the black central tube with the pinch ring, the new spacing should be very close to the 70mm needed for 116/616 films.
(fitting photo)

In that last photo, you can see that I added nylon screws to give this adapter the same "snap on" behavior as the reels. After all that work, I decided it was not worth it since the basic problem of spacing has already been solved, and the plastic pinch ring is enough to keep the assembly together.

[LarryD]

Thanks for all the great information

Larry

[J.Ed]

I've just aquired an Agfa PD16 Clipper. A 120 roll will, with shimming, fit the supply side and the 116 spool will take-up just fine. My question is, which window (it has two) should I use? It appears that the frames will overlap unless I use every other number.  

  Thanks.

[ImageMaker]

For 116, the 6x4.5 framing track will land under the window.  What I've done with 120 in a 616 box camera was to wind 2.5 frames -- since the window is at the supply end of the frame, I wind to 2.5 (the start of the warning marks after passing 2), then 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, and 15, getting six frames on a roll.  This gives a wide space between, but that covers minor errors in winding.  BTW, it's also a good idea to put some black tape over the outer 1/3 of the framing window, on the inside, to keep too much light from leaking past the edge of the 120 film.

Your Clipper is made for half frame (the two windows are on the same edge of the frame, one at the supply end and one near the takeup end).  You'll probably want to use every 3rd number (2, 5, 8, 11, 14), and wind them to the first window and then the second; that will get you ten exposures with very wide spacing, but anything shorter will be either very hard to keep track of, or overlap frames.  If you reload "real" 116, the same film that gives 8 exposures in standard cameras will give 16 in that one, but only needs numbers from 1 to 8 at the standard spacing -- you'd wind to the first window, then the second, then the next number to the first, and so on.

[Peter Evans]

Having authored these construction project articles here, I now think they would be better off in the Technical forum. But until I get the energy, I'll leave them here for now.  By this weekend, you might see a link here in place of this full article.

I haven't seen it yet. . . .

Here is what to shop for--a standard bathroom sink drain pipe extension (1 1/4" marked diameter) that should cost no more than a couple dollars.
(tube photo)

Note the missing "Adapter004.jpg".

Whether in nelsonfoto or elsewhere, was the article ever written? If so, I'm sure many people would appreciate a link to it; if it wasn't, I'm sure many people would appreciate restoration of the JPEGs.

[josphy]

That link works for me, Peter.  I take it the jpeg isn't coming up for you?

Incidently I see I was referenced on this thread before I ever even joined Nelsonfoto.  That's cool.  I'm famous. :-D  Maybe I'll go shoot my Monitor 616 some soon if I can put down my Bronica long enough.