info on old film - re: Click II

[Andre Reinders]

I just got my 'new' Agfa Click II in the mail today. Can't wait to run a roll through. But which film?/

The manual says for sunny use Agfa Isopan F, for cloudy/murky use Agfa Isopan ISS, and indoor use is Agfa Isopan Record. It also says that the ISS is double the F.

From my research the ISS is 100, and I saw someone refer to F as about 40 ASA. I have seen the Record listed anywhere from 650 to 1600.

Can anyone familiar with these older films lend me a hand? I obviously don't want to actually use the film - just find the modern equivalent.

EDIT: I am looking to confirm the speeds of these old films so I can choose something appropriate.

[jake]

Clicks work well with films in the ISO range of 50-125 in standard picture taking weather, i.e. not pouring down rain or at night. You can help your camera out by using a developer that does a good job with shadows & highlights simultaneously like Diafine or Pyrocat HD. Ilford PanF works really well in Clicks, especially (I think) if developed in Diafine, which gives it an ISO rating of about 80. The Click & the Clack were tourist cameras by design, so they work best in tourist weather with a tourist ISO. Which is what 50-100 generally is.

But experiment. Think in terms of stops - you can either go up or down by switching the aperture & shutter speed or by switching the ISO rating of your film. Blindingly sunny? 25 - 50 ISO. General sunny day? 50-125 ISO. Cloudy overcast depressing? 200-400ISO. Dark dismal or indoors or night? Sky is the limit ISO. Make a mistake - 25ISO on an overcast day? Push the development 1 or 2 stops. Change your developer.

[melek]

Andre, for that time period, there was very little fast film available. I think most films were roughly ASA 40, and the fastest film of the day was Super-XX at ASA 200, I believe. I think Tri-X was rated at about 200 when it first arrived.

According to one book I have, Isopan F was rated at 25-27 degrees, but that's BSI (British Standards Institute). According to several online photographic dictionary, it's identical to ASA. However, this book that I have can't possibly be correct because of speeds listed for other film. It also can't be DIN, so I think it's using degrees Schiener.

Isopan SS was rated from 29-31. If you go by the old conversion method, a three-degree change is rougly a doubling of the old ASA (identical to ISO).

Shorter version: It appears that Isopan F was rated from ISO 40-64, while Isopan SS is around ISO 80-125.

[jake]

I see your edit now.

Record was a film that journalists who shot sports used because it had a wide development range, something like the one you mentioned here. That would explain why you see it rated variably. You could shoot it and push it up to something like 1200ISO. I think it was rated somewhere around 400, like TriX.

If you want modern equivalents to the old film, look at Efke, PlusX and TriX. Or at Foma. TriX is the only one that I can think of that really has the range to push well I think. In the old days it was all D76 developer probably. Or Agfa Atomal I guess in terms of Agfa processing. Rodinal.

[Andre Reinders]

Thanks for all the information!

I am new to developing b/w (4 rolls under my belt so far!) - So I can easily push/pull the film if required.

I have started with Ilfosol S and just recently got some DDX which I have not tried yet. I am trying to stick to PanF, FP4+ and HP5+ for film.

That being said, I will probably go with PanF or FP4+ for sunny or overcast weather and rate them at 50 or 125 accordingly.

The lens reads Achromat 1:8.8, and when you dial in the 'sunny' setting - a yellow filter is put in place. Cloudy removes the filter and looks like a slightly larger hole (I hesitate to use the word aperture here ).

If The Sunny 16 rule is applied for 100 ISO film, then in 'murky' weather I extrapolate 1/125 @ f8. Most yellow filter are about 1 stop change - no? The manual says something like ' in cloudy weather change the setting to use the full aperture' - now I wonder if the sunny aperture is f8.8 as is stated on the lens or if it is the coudy aperture.....I am so confused  

ahh well - I guess I just need to try it.....now - colour or b/w?

[Scott]

Only four rolls?!  C'mon, Andre - I did two rolls yesterday, and it was my first day!   :wink:

Scott, fixin' to start another roll at naptime

[Andre Reinders]

Only four rolls?!  C'mon, Andre - I did two rolls yesterday, and it was my first day!   :wink:

Scott, fixin' to start another roll at naptime

- I got too many excuses - where to start? Gotta build a fence, watch the kids while my wife works in the evening, day job, etc. It is not the developing of the photos - it is the taking of them! Sun is setting around 8 pm here these days....no so much light to work with when supper is done by 7 pm.
I will try harder.....got two rolls on the go now....about to start a third...

[ImageMaker]

One thing to consider before dismissing old film speed references as inaccurate is that the ASA speed testing method and ratings were changed in 1960, with the result that most B&W films doubled their rating.  Tri-X, ASA 200, from 1954 was just as sensitive as Tri-X, ASA 400, from 1964, and ASA 25 from the 1950s would be the same as ASA 50 from the '60s.  So if your old refernce is giving (for instance) Plus-X at ASA 50, it's right on for pre-1960 ratings (the extra 1/3 stop, from 100 to 125, came along in the mid-1960s after reformulation of the emulsion).

So, if your BSI ratings were said to be the same as ASA (and they probably were), then the Isopan F would be like modern ISO 50 film.  Schiener was DIN/10, as I recall (well, actually, other way around; DIN took the Schiener methods and numbers and multiplied by 10 to avoid decimal points)  --  Old ASA 50 would be new ASA 100 would be 24 DIN or Schiener 2.4.  And we won't even get into Weston, Kodak, or USA speeds (I don't recall the conversions for those in any case).

Bottom line: almost all non-adjustable cameras, both 1930s and post-War, will be within the comfort zone of B&W negative film with ISO 100 in daylight conditions (sunny, hazy, open shade or cloudy bright, or direct sun in early morning or late afternoon) or ISO 50 in very bright lighting (sunny or hazy, midday only).

[Andre Reinders]

OK - I chose Plus-X 125.
(At lunch) I took a few shots in 'cloudy bright' weather.
The camera had the switch to 'sunny' which includes the yellow filter....

The manual says that the overcast setting would use the 'full' aperture - so I assume it is the f8.8 printed on the lens.

I am also assuming that from cloudy to sunny would be a 1 stop move down + another stop for the yellow filter. This would mean f8.8 + 2 stops....probably about f16. The manual suggests the ISOPAN F for sun (and the camera was made from '59-'70) Assuming that it was between 40 and 64 ISO (new ISO/ASA rating?), that would extrapolate to the shutter being in the range of 1/40-1/64 -ish.

I am trying to decide how to process the film.....so I need to work backward from the shutter speed through the sunny 16 rule to find the film ISO.
Let's say the shutter is 1/50 and I shot at f16 on a cloudy bright day...the 'rule' would say 1/ISO @ f11 = shutter, so 1/ISO @ f11 = 1/50.
....so ISO @ f11 = 50, but stopped down to f16 (equivalent) would require a faster film speed by a stop.....so ISO 100 - ish.

So I should process the film at its rated speed of 125.

Did I make enough assumptions to justify my logic?

Anyone see where I may have gone wrong? or does 125 look ok?

Thanks!

[jake]

Yep.

But you should know that b&w negative film has a lot of exposure latitude. So you can really "screw up" and still get a negative that you can print (or scan) just fine. So even if you were supposed to be using 64 or 80 ISO, developing for 125 will still get you an image.

I mean, it is a science this film stuff, but it isn't rocket science. No one dies unless you start drinking Rodinal.

[Andre Reinders]

I kinda figured that, but I have another reason - I have never run a roll of film through this beast. I bought it - and the description was that it looked in good working order - but sold AS IS.

I want to try and guage if the shutter is operating close to 'normal', and determine if it is in fact in 'good working order'.

Thanks again!

[Glenn Thoreson]

Ye worry too much. In the absence of Verichrome Pan, Plus-X is a good choice for sunny shots with the yelloy filter. Cloudy and dull? Tri-X or HP-5. I use D-76 1:1 for these simple cameras. Development tests, just simple time or agitation changes, will quickly give you what you want. There's little you can do with these simple cameras other than watch the light and use it to your advantage, shoot lots of film and have fun with it. Oh, if you use Pan-F, you probably will not want to use the yellow filter. Under exposure and all that.

Edit:
I should mention that 8.8 is optimistically the lens speed. The apertures will likely be f:12.5 (11) and f:18 (16). The yellow filter will also have the small aperture. Shutter speed - 1/30 or thereabouts.