Water spots - even after photo flo

[Andre Reinders]

I got spots. I just developed a roll of 120 + a roll of 35mm, the 35mm was fine but there are spots on the last 4 frames of the 120.

I finger squeegeed a couple of rolls before, but mainly got feedback that  it was not really needed, and could prove detrimental.

The photo flo was used about 4 times. I know it can be reused - but not sure how much. Could this be the cause? Should I toss my Photo flo each time?

We have hard water here in Calgary - could it be from that? I have only developed about 6 rolls of film so far, and none of the others have this issue. (the first 3 were finger squeegeed - the rest not)

The stop and fix were both on their 4 th roll or so. Bath and developer are fresh each time.

Is there a safe way to re rinse the negs now, after they are all dry and sleeved? would this help?

Thoughts?

[jake]

Yeah, Fotoflo can be reused, but I wouldn't. Use fresh to decrease chances of carrying contaminants from one job to another. I have a 3 cc syringe that I fill with Fotoflo, and then when I do my last wash (I follow the fill, five inversions, sit 5 minutes, drain, fill, 10 inversions, sit five minutes, drain, fill, 20 inversions, sit five minutes, drain, fill, Fotoflow, swish, pull reels & hang procedure from Anschell & Troop) I just squirt a bit in, do a little agitation washing machine style using the center rod and then hang. About 2cc per tank (4 35mm or 2 120) is all it takes.

Make sure everything is washed well - really well. Use a soft brush to clean your reels. Don't pour Fotoflo, dilute or otherwise, through the lid of your tank, either in or out. Fixer did its stuff, so the lid can come off for the wash. Keeps Fotoflo from accumulating in the crevices of the light trap. Use distilled water for at least your final wash - the one with the Fotoflo. Helps avoid problems of hard water without having to buy a lot of distilled water. Consider using (if you aren't already) metal reels and tanks which I think are easier to clean & keep clean.

You can re-rinse negatives, either in trays or by reloading into the reels. Use a little fresh Fotoflo and hang with clips that will not crimp or perforate the shorter strips.

[connealy]

Distilled water is only about 59 cents per gal. at Walmart.  I use it for mixing all my chemicals, and for my water stop bath with APX.  I mix three caps of photo-flo into a gallon of distilled water; I fill the tank from that as the final wash and discard each time.

[Conrad Hoffman]

I've some strong beliefs on this topic. They don't agree with a lot of what people do, but that's ok. Use what you can use, and discard what you can't. First, if there is anything in the water, and if that water is left on the film to dry, then whatever was in the water will end up on the film. Without Photo-Flo, LFN, or something similar, you'll have droplets, and whatever is contained in each droplet will be concentrated and form spots on the film when the water evaporates. There is also some published evidence that droplets drying on the film surface can change the grain pattern slightly as they dry. Thus, rule #1, avoid droplets by using a wetting agent. Rule #2, you want the minimum amount of disolved "stuff" present on the drying film. Whether it dries in spots or over the surface, whatever is in the water will end up on the film. There are two approaches. Either use distilled water, or remove as much water as possible before drying. With distilled water there is the question of how good it is to begin with. It may also be possible for the water to pick up compounds from the film itself; do you really think pure distilled water running off a gelatin surface is still pure distilled water? Remember that distilled water is one of the best solvents there is. Still, most people have the best results using distilled water. Some use salad spinners to remove the excess, though I've never tried this. IMO, rubber squeegees are a disaster waiting to happen. Even if they work initially, the fine edges oxidize, harden, develop microcracks, and ruin film with scratches. Junk. Personally, I use two very well rinsed photo sponges. These are not like your kitchen sponges, but are very fine grained synthetics. Photo-Flo is a film conditioner, and I soak the roll for a couple minutes in the correct (measured!) dilution of the stuff. Photo-Flo is not evil, it's beneficial, so don't just do a quick dunk. I use tap water. I then make one gentle pass down the film with a pair of the photo sponges that have been soaked in Photoflo and well wrung out. No droplets and no excess water on the surface. The result is scratch-free film, devoid of water spots, devoid of grain irregularities, and devoid of dust. It dries as fast as the local humidity will allow. One other comment, Photo-Flo is an easily miscible liquid. It does not leave deposits or buildups, and there is no problem rinsing it off of tanks and the like. There are various things that do build up, and periodic brushing and washing with very hot water is a good thing, but Photo-Flo presents no unusual problem in this regard. Because of the high dilution and low cost, I never save working dilutions of Photoflo. I also keep a particulate filter in my incoming water line; buy the finest non-charcoal you can find. Man, I think about this stuff way too much!

[ImageMaker]

Hard water: bad.  Reusing PhotoFlo: unnecessary (it's cheap, really, and that's speaking as one who occasionally has trouble affording distilled water to develop in).

I mix the PhotoFlo in distilled water (it's 97 cents a gallon here, still not bad unless it's a REALLY tight-budget week), use it once (or occasionally twice if I have several rolls of film to process at once) and then down the drain it goes.  The distilled water is the ticket, though; a few times recently I've just done a final rinse of the film with distilled, and got the same results I get with the PhotoFlo and distilled -- no water spots.

So, first thing, AT LEAST for the final rinse, use distilled water.  And second, mix the PhotoFlo at 1/2 the recommended strength or a little weaker (I do it 1:500 instead of 1:200, so 1 ml in a 120 tank, 0.5 ml in a 35 mm -- at which rate, a $5 bottle lasts me a year or more) and don't try to reuse it.  Soak for at least one minute, as recommended, then if necessary see-saw the film between the clips in the solution to get the film evenly wetted; hang by one corner and put the bottom clip on the opposite corner so the water runs to one edge, and any PhotoFlo residue you might still get will be out of the image area (though I've seen this only once, when I used *way* too much PhotoFlo concentrate).

In fact, I'd suggest doing everything that contacts your film with distilled water -- mixing the developer, stop and fix, diluting, and all wash steps (using the Ilford wash method).

And no, I don't squeegee (with anything -- wipers, sponges, or fingers), and have never felt the need to do so.

[Benny Stevens]

I don't know if it's true, but my photography teacher used to say that all the photographic wetting agents are basically the same as your regular dish-washing product (minus the fancy colouring and perfumes) : a product to break the surface tension of the water in order to better 'wet' the soaked item. Perhaps it's just talk from a teacher in a school on a budget... So we used Dreft  :lol: - just a microscopic drop in the water filled tank, and taking great care not to cause the water to foam. So gently move the spiral in and out of the water a few times and that's it. I personnally hold the loaded spiral briefly under the running tap after that. Then unload the film and remove the excess water in your preferred manner (fingers, squeegee or photo-sponge) and hang it to dry. I almost never have any deposits or dried droplet traces on the film and thus I continue to work like this. It's just an idea I thought might interest you. Besides, I'm already glad to find more than one type of fixer in the photo stores these days, let alone a wetting agent!  :wink:  Just my 2 cents - YMMV.

[Glenn Thoreson]

I've discovered every possible thing that can go wrong with using PhotoFlo. I'm good at that sort of thing. First, I believe Kodak's dilution recommendations are way to strong. A couple of drops is enough for a small (2 35mm, 1 120) tank. Don't save it! I can tell you, it will do some really nasty things to your film if it goes sour. Don't squeegee when you use the stuff. Don't use it on plastic reels! It does form a coating of gunk that can make them impossible to load. I don't put it in any tank. I remove the film from the reel and dunk it in PhotoFlo in another container. Distilled water? Yes. The most important thing - cleanliness thru the whole process.

[Dean Williams]

If I was using Photo-Flo, I wouldn't re-use it.  It is cheap enough to toss out.  I haven't used any in the last couple of years, though.  I've been using an alcohol/distilled water mix at  one part alcohol to four parts distilled.  I use it for about five rolls of 120 and then toss it.  
When I used to use Photo-Flo, I didn't get many spots, but there would be one once in a while.  Always on the best frame of the roll, of course.  Since starting the alcohol mix I haven't had one spot in two years.  For me, that's about 250 rolls of film.  Costs just a little more than Photo-Flo, but for me, no spots is good news, and well worth it.

[Andre Reinders]

Thanks to everyone for the informative and varied opinions!

I think I will modify my process a little. I will use distilled water for the final rinse with photo flo, and I will cut the dilution. I will also stop re-using it.

I have heard many times about photo flo and its disastrous effects on the plastic reels and tanks (which is what I use).  I don't know if this helps, but after every developing session (within 1 hour), all equipment gets washed in warm/hot water with some dish soap (about 1/2 of what I would normally use for dishes), then rinsed and air dried over night before I put it away. Some people don't have an issue with plastic + photo flo, but more often than not these comments pop up. Does everyone clean their equipment this way? Is is not good enough to prevent photo-flo-itis?

[Glenn Thoreson]

Dean, am I correct in assuming the film dries faster with the alcohol mix?

[Don Day]

News photographers used to swear by a final dunk of straight rubbing alcohol to promote fastest possible drying of negatives when up against a press deadline. Dean's less extreme process should work well.  I've used a similar process reasonably well in the past. Rubbing alcohol not only displaces some of the water in the emulsion, but also has a wetting property and dries without any residual components, unlike dish detergent, which might have emolients and perfumes.

Last year I bought a bottle of Edwal LFN Wetting Agent to try, and I have been much happier with it. It is more versatile than the other alternatives because of its extreme dilution (2-3 drops per 16 oz water), dries off of film and reels with no residue, and the fact that you can use it in pre-soaks and developers to dispel air bubbles.  After washing my negatives and attaching the drying clips, I just see-saw the roll through this dilute solution in the tank until I can get a good draw with even sheeting.  I have hard water here--it comes from limestone aquifers!--but have had no particular issues that I would trace to the minerals themselves.  A well-wetted roll will dry evenly with no noticeable mineral concentration.

The only film I've tried recently that seems to have spotting issues is the cheap Lucky film from J and C Photo.  Its best virtue is that the price is right for testing an old camera with.  I suspect that it lacks the gelatin coating on the back side because it curls so tightly after drying, and the back side is where the spots tend to occur.  To counter these droplets, I come back after a few minutes and use a clean paper towel to wick them off.

[Dean Williams]

Glenn, my perception is that it dries a little faster.  It could be my imagination, though.  I made a film drier from PVC tubing that uses filtered forced air, so it's pretty fast whatever fluid I use as a post wash film rinse.  About twenty minutes in the summer, and 35-40 minutes in the winter, when my darkroom is around 60 deg F.
I'm gonna post a simple construction article for the film dryer, soon as I get a roundtuit.  It is nice to have dry film in about half an hour!

[jake]

I really like the Hewes metal reels and the Kinderman metal tanks. Plastic is advertised as being easier, but really, after a few practice sessions, metal reels are faster better easier + you can clean the heck out of them, load them wet, etc.

[Scott]

Andre, FWIW as another relative newbie, I use PhotoFlo, then do a fairly long wash with hot water only.  It's been hot enough here that I can leave the stuff out in the sun to dry.  PhotoFlo's alcohol-based, and completely soluble, so a long rinse should reduce any residue to negligible, if not non-existant, levels.

[Andre Reinders]

Last night I put the 3 frame strip with the spots into a tray of 20 degree C water for about 3 min, with some agitation. Then added Photo-Flo, and some more mild agitation, the spots are still there. (I hung it to dry overnight) ...I think I will get a print made so I can scan and share.

I certainly am having fun developing...my problem is getting time to shoot, especially when the sun is setting earlier and earlier...today will be 7:24 pm. I get home at 6, and usually finish dinner at about 7. That leaves the weekend....or I gotta get more night photography going. (and/or faster film)